tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12703782.post4737881615184301529..comments2024-03-25T13:42:25.771-05:00Comments on Advance Indianaâ„¢: Outrage: Indianapolis Taxpayers To Finance Another Downtown Private DevelopmentGary R. Welshhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15185079937305083438noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12703782.post-11185603203552502292010-09-28T06:18:05.860-05:002010-09-28T06:18:05.860-05:00This has Bob Grand and Tom Johns hands all over it...This has Bob Grand and Tom Johns hands all over it.Big fees for the firms and Tom Hirons.Hirons is making tons of cash off of the fact that the Mayors son works for them.NO BID CONTRACTS.<br /><br />CONFLICT<br /><br />Hirons did all of the PR for this yesterday and has the contract to promote the projectBillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05775838756789417151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12703782.post-70906895144040776422010-09-27T23:57:11.663-05:002010-09-27T23:57:11.663-05:00Gary, you are correct. A TIF district will only s...Gary, you are correct. A TIF district will only suck money away from libraries, schools, public safety and parks. Those groups already have budgets that are stretched to the limits. This is a bad deal. HAD ENOUGHT???artfugginshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05364503656694166926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12703782.post-20419984824483601352010-09-27T22:45:04.936-05:002010-09-27T22:45:04.936-05:00AI wrote, "Did it occur to anyone that privat...AI wrote, "Did it occur to anyone that private financing cannot be lined up because it may not be a viable economic development project absent huge public subsidies?"<br /><br />Ding. Ding. Ding. We have a winner!<br /><br />Cato rightly points in the direction of crony capitalism and Citizen Kane makes the great observation that voters and taxpayers somehow make a mysterious disconnect between those things they pay directly for (parking meter rates) and those that the government takes by force from them and hands out in big chunks (sports team subsidies and backstopping uncreditworthy private business ventures).Sean Shepardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04784017076656340302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12703782.post-35256113171980101872010-09-27T22:22:01.089-05:002010-09-27T22:22:01.089-05:00Let's say the funding of this development is c...Let's say the funding of this development is completely independent of funding needed to keep libraries open, sidewalks repaired, sewers in good working order, schools with air conditioning, parks and pools that are open, and a graduation rate that doesn't nationally disgrace us. <br /><br />There's still no symbolic association, no double-take, no shaking of the head, no disbelief at how we can find dollars for building yet another hotel, but not enough for basic infrastructure?<br /><br />If we were flush, back in our economic heyday, not in a Great Recession- I might buy it. After the string of sports stadiums, rebuilt library, rennovated Wishard, and not yet hearing the words, "We can't afford it."<br /><br />Naaah. I ain't buying it.<br /><br />It's incredibly cornball to say it, but this city is owned by the rich and powerful. Project after project, if we only use their lawyers, and architecture firms, and building suppliers, and construction firms, and unions, supported by our newspaper, mass media, and sports teams- we'll be "big" like the rest of them. No need to have holes in the ground for years any more. We'll show 'em! <br /><br />How's being "big" working out for you, Indy? Is "Naptown" sounding quite as bad as it used to?dcrutchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12856825454020971907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12703782.post-74716194998579520302010-09-27T19:59:30.465-05:002010-09-27T19:59:30.465-05:00The citizens will not rise up, as it appears that ...The citizens will not rise up, as it appears that people don't mind having their money stolen from them, as long as the government does it in really big chunks - not small ones like raising parking or toll rates or local income taxes.<br /><br />Regardless of whether this is a new TIF or an existing TIF, this is an additional obligation that the taxpayers must pay, either through the diversion of taxpayer funds from funding basic services to instead pay debt, resulting in higher taxes, reduced services or both. <br /><br />TIFs, as with every other so-called economic development scheme, is just a method to subsidize profits of the already wealthy while transferring any and all loses to the remaining taxpayers.Citizen Kanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17083803017411939029noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12703782.post-121211519220014612010-09-27T19:20:21.561-05:002010-09-27T19:20:21.561-05:00James,
The private market won't finance this ...James,<br /><br />The private market won't finance this development because they don't think it will raise money. As a result, the City is using tax dollars to fund the development. That is all one needs to know.Paul K. Ogdenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16137003328850866711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12703782.post-86984077434569815222010-09-27T19:16:38.151-05:002010-09-27T19:16:38.151-05:00It's not a defense, Cato; it's a factual s...It's not a defense, Cato; it's a factual statement in the interest of fair and balanced disclosure in this debate. The Democrats had 8 years running the Mayor's office after decades of Republican mayors. Peterson approached these issues no differently than Ballard or other Republican mayors for that matter.Gary R. Welshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15185079937305083438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12703782.post-2673325743532712512010-09-27T18:51:28.534-05:002010-09-27T18:51:28.534-05:00Gary, I don't understand your defense. If I te...Gary, I don't understand your defense. If I tell you that the Yankees field nine guys who play the field, bat and steal bases, it's no defense to say "Well, the Red Sox do that, too."<br /><br />Further, what's with this binary thinking? I was indicting the Republicans. Whatever the Democrats do is irrelevant to the charge.<br /><br />There are a variety of positions and parties besides the two main offerings.Catohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03341628086158209539noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12703782.post-72778280320981482392010-09-27T17:21:08.977-05:002010-09-27T17:21:08.977-05:00I KNEW IT! I'd been seeing/hearing the prelim...I KNEW IT! I'd been seeing/hearing the preliminary PR snippets all weekend and not one mentioned what WE would be kicking in on it. I just knew we'd be funding part of it. But of course they weren't being at all forthright on that 'minor detail.'<br /><br />I was perusing the IndyStar site on Sunday - a lengthy piece on the Circle Center, including a timeline of how it progressed.<br /><br />Funny thing - they got to the part where they put money into it and all it said was:<br /><br />"9/13/94 - Central Newspapers Inc. approves investment of an undisclosed sum in the mall, joining 17 other investors."<br /><br />The amount WAS disclosed to be $2.3 Million and was at the time a 'loan.'<br /><br /><a href="http://www.indystar.com/article/99999999/news06/100907024" rel="nofollow">Circle Centre Timeline</a><br /><br />So it goes...Downtown Indyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06239811599722585898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12703782.post-58602931102011982832010-09-27T16:21:58.609-05:002010-09-27T16:21:58.609-05:00Help from the City (taxpayers) for another project...Help from the City (taxpayers) for another project..but no raises for IMPD, only one recruit class instead of two, which means less police hired.....Lilly has enough money let them fund it.Southsiderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02282292344989907058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12703782.post-71208577869195088372010-09-27T16:12:38.053-05:002010-09-27T16:12:38.053-05:00Not so fast, Cato. These are the exact same polici...Not so fast, Cato. These are the exact same policies pursued by Democratic Mayor Bart Peterson and his Deputy Mayor Melina Kennedy as his chief economic development person, who is your presumptive nominee for mayor in 2011.Gary R. Welshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15185079937305083438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12703782.post-34499392325023622922010-09-27T15:55:38.178-05:002010-09-27T15:55:38.178-05:00Like we were told downtown TIF moneys would be use...Like we were told downtown TIF moneys would be used to fund the ICVA or the Pacers, depending on which story you want to believe. It seems to me we are financing 50%of the cost of this project out of existing TIF revenues, not new revenues.Gary R. Welshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15185079937305083438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12703782.post-66965460314783639482010-09-27T15:52:58.927-05:002010-09-27T15:52:58.927-05:00Why do you call this an "outrage?"
This...Why do you call this an "outrage?"<br /><br />This is what Republicans are - government for hire.<br /><br />They have always done this, and they always will. When you elect a Republican, you're electing someone who is looking to shift public assets to private ownership and benefit. You're also electing someone who believes in crony capitalism and will use the regulatory power for the benefit of his friends. They're exceptionally good at making the government a conduit from your wallet to the pocket of their friends.<br /><br />They're criminals on a grand scale, but they always act according to their nature.<br /><br />You might as well get outraged at your dog for liking dog biscuits.Catohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03341628086158209539noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12703782.post-56774815475893255152010-09-27T15:51:40.717-05:002010-09-27T15:51:40.717-05:00@Had Enough: My assumption is that this is a TIF d...@Had Enough: My assumption is that this is a TIF district that includes the development area - not some other area.<br />They said it is funded from the "Downtown TIF district" which isn't much info.<br /><br />Again, we don't have a lot of details.<br /><br />If this is in fact a TIF district around the proposed development, and captures tax revenue that otherwise wouldn't have happened, I don't think it's a bad idea -- particularly because I believe the private lending market is still somewhat irrational.<br /><br />If that's not the case, and the tax revenue could be used to pay off existing debt, then we have a different story.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10353716411719801456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12703782.post-27293581558487529942010-09-27T15:32:56.979-05:002010-09-27T15:32:56.979-05:00TIF money comes from the increase in property taxe...TIF money comes from the increase in property taxes that are a result of a given development vs a parking lot. So, if this deal would have happened without TIF then yes, we are taking money away from schools, etc.<br /><br />But if the deal wouldn't otherwise happen, it's a wash... at least in terms of property taxes.<br /><br />I know that's a really simple analysis - it's not clear what the TIF district is and there are a lot of other details.<br /><br />Again, I'd be interested in knowing the net cost to the City and the risk involved. <br /><br />I'm with you on the hotel rooms.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10353716411719801456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12703782.post-39857426122586642192010-09-27T15:20:13.616-05:002010-09-27T15:20:13.616-05:00James - this is tax money collected to pay off spe...James - this is tax money collected to pay off specific debt already on the books. Where is it written that THIS project deserves taxpayer subsidy by half of its costs? Why not pay off the old debt and retire the TIF. Then the tax money will go to all of the taxing units.<br /><br />It is not free money, or found money, or extra money. It is taxpayer money and it should be spend on higher priorities that another hotel. I vote we retire the TIF.Had Enough Indy?https://www.blogger.com/profile/09673791504434523246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12703782.post-23400694931523973502010-09-27T15:18:38.033-05:002010-09-27T15:18:38.033-05:00James, Where the hell do you think TIF monies come...James, Where the hell do you think TIF monies come from? Do you think they just fall out of the sky? No, they are paid out of property tax revenues that would otherwise go to the schools, libraries, townships, city, etc. And the last time I checked, higher income families aren't looking for apartments and there is a glut of empty condos on the market for sale downtown. The other downtown hotels are already prepared to take a hit on the opening of the new J.W. Marriott because the ICVA is booking rooms left and right for their complex of hotels at the expense of the other downtown hotels. Add another new hotel into a mix while the economy is already depressed and I wouldn't be surprised to see a couple of existing hotels facing closure for lack of occupancy.Gary R. Welshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15185079937305083438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12703782.post-40429212841360238752010-09-27T15:05:16.471-05:002010-09-27T15:05:16.471-05:00Okay... what is our cost on this exactly? Honest q...Okay... what is our cost on this exactly? Honest question.<br /><br />Sounds like the City provides financing that is repaid using TIF - so there's no real cost to the City. If these bonds aren't GO bonds, is the default risk to the bondholders or the City?<br /><br />No TIF, no development. No development, no tax revenue. I don't see how that impacts other city services. If I'm not seeing this correctly, let me know.<br /><br />Look, unless I'm not understanding the deal (and there are few details, so that's possible) this seems appropriate.<br /><br />I have some issue with the market demand for hotel rooms. And I would have liked to have seen this happen at the MSA site.<br /><br />We need to have more higher-income families living downtown. That will spur demand for retail, office space, etc. Right now those people are going to Carmel, clogging up the roads and spending their money outside of Marion County.<br /><br />I wish it wasn't so "closed"... meaning that it would be good if it wasn't such a "Lilly Compound" sort of development. However, I understand that it's the proximity to Lilly that makes this work.<br /><br />I would much rather do this than an outright gift of $30 million to the pacers (for the first couple of years).<br /><br />I think that the lack of private financing is irrational to some extent - and that we should be looking at demand 3-5 years from now (it will take 2 or more years to get it built).<br /><br />I'd be in favor of doing likewise for the MSA site.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10353716411719801456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12703782.post-18844685801966084122010-09-27T15:01:30.657-05:002010-09-27T15:01:30.657-05:00Is there no intelligent life on the 25th floor?
W...Is there no intelligent life on the 25th floor?<br /><br />Why should the property taxpayers pay for another hotel?<br /><br />When are we going to get priorities set first - then pursued according to the money we have?<br /><br />Instead, any smuck that shows up on the 25th floor peddling a plan, gets OUR money thrown at him.<br /><br />I'm going to trot out that old campaign slogan - Had Enough Yet?Had Enough Indy?https://www.blogger.com/profile/09673791504434523246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12703782.post-49658220180458362502010-09-27T14:44:25.451-05:002010-09-27T14:44:25.451-05:00This is such an outrage
"The city got involv...This is such an outrage<br /><br />"The city got involved in financing the project because private banks and other commercial lenders have largely pulled out of the market for new commercial development, he said."<br /><br />As you point out, Gary, that's because it is a BAD INVESTMENT.Paul K. Ogdenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16137003328850866711noreply@blogger.com